The Endgame

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The Endgame

Postby Gavin » 14 Apr 2012, 11:18

Well this is quite a bleak one, but I was thinking about giving it its own thread and then Paul's comment in the fitness thread motivated me:

Paul wrote:Is anyone here by the way starting to think about 'hoarding' certain things and at least making basic preparations for coping with a civil and supply crisis?


Once upon a time I might have dismissed this as conspiracy theory type talk - I think most conspiracy theories are nonsense - but I would not do so now. I believe it is entirely possible and probably unavoidable now that there will be considerable civil disorder in the UK within the next few years, as a result of the leftist policies of the last 20-30 years. We might as well face up to reality sooner rather than later.

I read the whole of Anders Behring Breivik's manifesto and I thought he was largely correct in his description of the problems facing Europe (much of the content was not original to him) but he was clearly a narcissist with delusions of grandeur. I am certainly not suggesting that anyone should copy Mr Breivik's atrocity, but he was correct in as much this, with or without actions such as his, is probably all going to end in tears. He got carried away and was, I would say, deranged. It is therefore incidental that these objections (valid ones, as it happens) are the ones to which he attached himself. They're just the elephant in the room for somebody like Mr Breivik to spot.

The trouble is, Breivik is far from alone in noticing the problems, even if no-one else is going to go on the kind of rampage he did. He just (ironically from his point of view) made it harder, for a while, for people to talk about them, but the truth has a habit of just not going away. When you read Telegraph comments now (and this is only The Telegraph, not the BNP site) you've got people offering to oversee the execution of Tony Blair for what he did to the UK. That's pretty strong stuff, and there are hundreds of comments like that on there, saying London is just another third world city now. The trouble is it really looks that way when you're there. People also talk about there being reconciliation trials of judges in the future too for the absurd sentences they hand down. Even in The Guardian the top rated comments are invariably highly critical of the paper's own left wing journalists.

People might say "It'll never happen". It did happen - we saw a complete breakdown of law and order in several British cities with the police unable to cope. And just recently I have heard nothing on the radio but news about "police racism" and how the police are going to apologise further for this, that and the other, and instigate new inquiries and so on. Dave has done nothing of any substance to reverse the state of affairs in the UK either.

So it is prudent to take steps to be in good personal health, to try to make money, and to make plans to get out if possible. On Gates of Vienna there are some detailed articles predicting how things are going to unfold from here on in. Skirmishes in places like Luton and Bradford. More riots. Ethic enclaves developing more distinctly. More no-go areas for police.

I wonder if what will happen eventually is that there will be some kind of coup and the army and police will turn against their multiculti liberal leaders to save civilisation. Obviously, nobody in this thread must (or I would presume want to) encourage any kind of violence, what we are doing is simply trying to predict where this is all going to end up.

My view is that there will be conflict and it will have to end with a fairly strongly right wing party in power. The balance may swing a little too far to the right, but prior to that all of the unbelievable things we discuss on this site will continue until the civil disorder begins and people (politicians) just can't lie about things any more.

This is pretty scary and bleak stuff and I'm sorry about that but it is worth thinking things through. In terms of action to take, I would say one does need to concentrate on being physically fit, and on making enough money. One then needs to think about either staying or going. It's not really easy to go anywhere that doesn't have these problems now, but I may well go to the USA as I was thinking of doing that anyway. But then I'm deserting my country! I leave this one for discussion. One also needs to consider whether it is responsible to bring children into a society such as we see in the UK, or whether this would be unfair on them (personally I am inclined towards the latter view).

This thread, for those who can take it, is about how we think things are going to unfold, and what we're going to do about it. But remember to look at the comedy thread too. :)
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Damo » 14 Apr 2012, 14:16

I believe the social welfare system has an awful lot to answer for.

I'm not against having a safety net for genuine cases but the system we have now encourages the wrong people to have children - who will be poorly educated, dragged up and in turn will repeat it all over again.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Gavin » 14 Apr 2012, 16:56

I agree, Damo, I think child support will need removing. But I'm wondering what will actually happen. Perhaps it will go the way of the Bosnian/Serbian conflict. I suppose it will if it is allowed to rot much further - i.e. if politicians kowtow and use euphemisms and excuses and don't actually face up to what is going on and start insisting on better standards and passing laws.

Here's a comment from beneath an Ed West article (he's been writing some strangely liberal material recently - I'm wondering if he's being leaned on). This mirrors what I've seen:

A female contributor wrote:It will get worse. There will come a tipping point in the next 20 years, when the professional middle class graduates will be starting their careers elsewhere than London. The liberal exodus to Bath was noted some years ago when John Cleese went there (and he announced that his luvvie friends were already there). Gay people have known the same thing about Brighton. The BBC has moved most of its operations to Manchester, along with the British Council.

So, within 20 years, the cultural decline of London will enter a terminal spiral. Whenever I visit the Barbican or the Albert Hall, I notice barely a non-white face in the audience; same when I visit the Tate Gallery, or the V&A. The British Museum has seen the writing on the wall, having two islamic exhibitions within the last year, and having "Bangladeshi Days", when families in sandals get in free. But such backwards-looking and inward-looking cultures are not interested in non-islamic art, or high culture. Where are these institutions going to get the money from to put on bold exhibitions - there will be next to no audience (and a future government is not going to have the funds to subsidise them further).

I see the fleeing middle classes won't even mention why they are leaving. They blame London in general, rather than name the poison. Funny how the good school their child goes to on the south coast or out in Essex or in Bath is so much better than a London school, where white people are a minority.


What is going on? Are the people of different ethnicities turned away at the door of the Royal Albert Hall? Are they determined to become interested in traditional British culture but are simply denied this opportunity? No. When you swamp a country so much, with so many people from such different cultures, it is not the newcomers who adopt to the ways of the host, but vice versa, especially when the host suffers in a widespread way from both xenophilia and, wait for it, Roger Scruton's term oikophobia.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Darian » 14 Apr 2012, 17:54

In my totally unqualified opinion, we will see a conflict in Britain similar to The Troubles in Northern Ireland, only more bloody and sectarian. The sight of British soldiers in the streets will probably become common (and with the state of some British towns and cities I'm not sure that is such a bad thing). Ultimately, if trends continue, a hard right government will come into power and, rightly or wrongly, the average person will probably welcome it. Criminals will be hanged, mass immigration will cease, Muslims and other unruly immigrants will be deported, order will be imposed, government welfare will end and liberals will have no one to blame but themselves for this outcome. Things could change for the better in a decade, or in a year, or tomorrow for all I know, but to me what I described seems the most likely endgame. No civilization will simply allow itself to die when so many of its problems can be fixed. They won't be fixed without great effort of course, but it seems Britain has emerged from worse, and has vanquished more worthy enemies than chavs and welfare addicted Islamists.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Gavin » 14 Apr 2012, 18:31

Interesting, and I agree this is the way things could well play out. Let us hope that, if this happens, it is remembered why it happened, and there are never again the insane Leftist social experiments wrought upon the UK that we have seen in recent history.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Caleb » 15 Apr 2012, 13:05

Paul wrote:Is anyone here by the way starting to think about 'hoarding' certain things and at least making basic preparations for coping with a civil and supply crisis?


Gavin wrote:This is pretty scary and bleak stuff and I'm sorry about that but it is worth thinking things through. In terms of action to take, I would say one does need to concentrate on being physically fit, and on making enough money. One then needs to think about either staying or going. It's not really easy to go anywhere that doesn't have these problems now, but I may well go to the USA as I was thinking of doing that anyway. But then I'm deserting my country! I leave this one for discussion. One also needs to consider whether it is responsible to bring children into a society such as we see in the UK, or whether this would be unfair on them (personally I am inclined towards the latter view).


Firstly, I think the welfare state will collapse economically, regardless of whether the broader culture wakes up to it or not. It will simply become unsustainable, especially if more productive citizens leave for greener pastures.

I could also see an extreme right wing government or even coup, and a sort of martial law. Not pleasant, but quite possible.

In terms of going, the trouble is that where would one run? The four obvious candidates (for cultural reasons) would be the U.S., Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

In the case of the U.S., I would say it could also quite possibly have civil strife before too long. There is the possibility of a kind of class warfare breaking out there if their economy stays in the doldrums for too long. The major advantage in the U.S. is its gun culture and the ability for citizens to arm themselves against either the government or criminals.

Canada probably has pretty good economic fundamentals, but the climate is pretty brutal, which isn't so good for self-sufficiency/food production.

Australia does have some pretty severe climate/environmental issues (in the past couple of years, it just emerged from a ten year drought that was not fun -- I lived in the country and it was devastating there). Its economy is also relatively robust.

New Zealand has always lagged economically, and it also has some social issues (and is far more left wing than Australia), but I actually think its climate is better suited to self-sufficiency and living generally.

There might be certain other wildcards such as some parts of Latin America (Costa Rica, Panama, Chile), but Latin America has traditionally been pretty unstable. Much of Latin America (including those three countries) is not suited for white people in terms of climate.

Still, I think if people really think it's going to get really bad in the U.K., then it would probably still be better to leave for the reasons I list below.

On the issue of hoarding supplies, I think it's fairly unrealistic in the main for one general reason, and for two reasons that the U.K. finds itself in particularly that would affect that.

In the general sense, you'd need to hoard a lot of supplies. Think about how much food you and your family (if any) eat in a week. Think about your energy needs. Think about your water needs. Storing all of that stuff would require a fair amount of space. Any civil strife would probably last several weeks, if not months. At some point, you'd need to be able to produce what you used. This leads to the two particular problems of the U.K.

Firstly, it has a fairly high population density (compare this to even France, for example). You'd need to be living in the countryside to stand any hope of achieving this as the average family would probably need a couple of acres. You simply can't be self-sufficient living in an urban settlement.

Related to that, the second issue would always be about defending yourself and your hoarded supplies or your farm. The U.K. has fairly strict gun laws, so it's unlikely that the average law-abiding citizen would have the means to defend himself from attack and robbery. The criminals, on the other hand, already have access to weaponry. This would be bad enough in other countries with tight gun laws (e.g. Australia), but the population density and proximity of almost all rural areas to large urban populations would make it even worse.

As for having children. On the one hand, it might be a bleak future, but on the other hand, without children, the end is only hastened. The Italian Peninsula in the middle of the fifth century must not have looked like a great place to have children, yet people still did, and even in a small way, civilisation (barely) survived. History is littered with turmoil. At a fundamental level, it really is a case of populate or perish though.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Michael » 16 Apr 2012, 14:15

I recommend Canada for those worried about the state of Britain and its future. We are a highly peaceful country with a very good record for assimilating immigrants - we insist upon English or French fluency and, except for refugees, who only rarely can become full citizens, we limit immigration to the educated and law-abiding. We also have a fairly stable economy based in resources and banking, and are sitting on top of one of the largest available supplies of oil (with current production technology) in the world, second only to Saudi Arabia.

Politically we have a parliamentary system which, for the foreseeable future, will be dominated by the countries major conservative party in a fairly airtight majority. We were also judged by Foreign Policy magazine to be among the most stable states in the world, along with Sweden, New Zealand, and Switzerland. We were judged to be more stable than almost all the continental European countries, as well as Britain. Our greatest problem has been uneven economic development - most of the wealth is now concentrated in the west of the country, where the primary resource sectors (oil, gas, timber, minerals) are concentrated, while much of the population is in the East, which is economically stable if not rapidly expanding. I would avoid the Maritimes, the Atlantic provinces, which were the homes of the previous resource sector (fishing) which has been in a decades long decline.

Some economic protectionism exists in the telecom sector, so be prepared for higher rates for mobile phones.

The cultural scene is quite vibrant, and we do not tend to promote nearly as much filth as arts councils in Britain or the United States. Most major cities have vibrant arts communities, which support operas and theaters showing contemporary and classic plays.

I'm not the most impartial judge, but compared to our American neighbors I find Canadians on the whole to be a quieter, more polite people, given to less noisy boosterism, both of self or country.

I have thought long and hard about the issue, and do not fear widespread civic unrest or the collapse of public order here in the near or long term.

For those interested in firearms we restrict the kinds of weapons people can legally own (rifles/shotguns okay, pistols somewhat restricted, assault weapons banned), and require prospective owners to take firearms safety courses in order to obtain a purchaser and owners license, but I've never met a law-abiding citizen who wanted to own a gun who was unable to obtain one legally.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Gavin » 16 Apr 2012, 14:54

Interesting post, Michael.

As it happens, half my family are Canadian, my Dad's brother and sister both having emigrated out there when it was much easier to do so. I went there in 2007 and was impressed. We even had a look around their parliamentary buildings, their government of course being based upon the UK model.

Mark Steyn is out there with you too. But I gather all is not entirely rosy in Canada - I think he had a book banned, Islam is growing in Canada too, and don't you have some trouble with Quebec?

But overall I certainly take your point - Canada is one of the places with the highest standards of living, and is on the most stable, it seems, in the world. It is also a Western country with much the same culture as the UK (or what the UK used to be!). The issue would be getting in there.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Darian » 16 Apr 2012, 21:08

Gavin wrote:Mark Steyn is out there with you too. But I gather all is not entirely rosy in Canada - I think he had a book banned, Islam is growing in Canada too, and don't you have some trouble with Quebec?


Canada isn't perfect of course. We still have many of the problems and social pathology the U.K and the U.S have (look to the recent hockey riots in Vancouver as an example), but to a far lesser degree. For the most part one doesn't feel a sense of unease here like one does in many parts of modern Britain and America. The nature of our underclass is different than Britain and the States. America has a very large violent and resentful black underclass in almost every major city, with a massive grievance industry to make excuses for their behaviour; Britain's underclass is one we are all too familiar with here, comprised of white formerly working-class, West Indians, and Muslims; Canada's underclass is comprised mostly of aboriginals, who are addicted to drugs and welfare, but outside of Winnipeg (which has one of the highest crime rates in the country) the natives do not really live in the cities, and instead live in isolated communities far away from the major population centres.

Yes Islam is growing and so is its influence, but it is far more subdued in Canada than in Britain. We haven't yet seen fit to let every illiterate Pakistani peon into our borders as you guys have. Our immigration system isn't perfect, there are still countless fake refugees and immigrants who abuse the system , but our system would still be a decent model to look to if and when Britain decides it's time to change course.

As for our beloved Quebec, their influence in national affairs is waning thankfully. Consider Quebec the Canadian equivalent of Scotland, covetous and socialist. They have built themselves a continental European-style welfare state, payed for by the taxpayers of Western Canada. This has sown the seeds of their future irrelevancy, as they are so busy pretending to be Frenchmen that they forgot about demographics, and with the decline of their population their influence declines with it.

Gavin wrote:But overall I certainly take your point - Canada is one of the places with the highest standards of living, and is on the most stable, it seems, in the world. It is also a Western country with much the same culture as the UK (or what the UK used to be!). The issue would be getting in there.


The decision to abandon the Commonwealth Realms in favour of the E.U. seems rather stupid in hindsight doesn't it? It seems ridiculous that a Pole (no offence intended to you Tomasz) has more right to abode and work in the UK than a Canadian does, even though we have the same monarch, the same culture and the same temperament.

Michael wrote:I'm not the most impartial judge, but compared to our American neighbors I find Canadians on the whole to be a quieter, more polite people, given to less noisy boosterism, both of self or country.


I do agree Canadians on the whole are more polite and reserved than Americans, but we mustn't forget about the raging Canadian inferiority complex. I do get annoyed by my countrymen who think they're superior in every way to the Americans, who believe that Americans are all ignorant and moronic cowboys.

On the whole, Canada would be a decent fit for most Britons. Victoria, British Colombia is full of British retirees I believe, and it definitely looks like a British city (in the classical sense), as it is full of English gardens and is very pleasant.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Gavin » 16 Apr 2012, 21:47

Yes, I wasn't going to mention the inferiority complex again ;) I am sure not everybody suffers from it though!

I must find some link with family out there and get a way in. If not, it'll be the USA, which is also fine with me: I don't think states like Texas are going to submit to Islam any time soon. Who knows, maybe the Americans will have to come and help Europe out again in the future at the rate we're going.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Caleb » 17 Apr 2012, 02:01

I spent a little time in Canada and it's a great place with great people. I'd definitely go back there in the future. My friend's sister married a Canadian and has been living in Fernie for the past few years. I was there in early autumn, but the winters there must be somewhat disagreeable. That's probably the only thing that might turn me off ever living in Canada.

As for Canadians, I used to have a very high opinion of them, but since I have lived in Taiwan, my opinion of them has plummeted. It's not just me. There's a joke that R.O.C. (Republic of China, i.e. Taiwan) actually stands for Rest of Canada. For whatever reason, this place seems to attract the worst of your compatriots. The reputation of Canadians here is that of a bunch of loud mouthed, dope smoking (there's always one getting busted by the cops), sandal wearing, illegal kindergarten teachers. I have known some good Canadians here, but I've also met a lot of people here who fit the stereotypes usually associated with Americans, except with even bigger chips on their shoulders because they think that simply by not being American, they can act like idiots with impunity.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Darian » 17 Apr 2012, 03:58

Caleb: I definitely know the type you are referring to and I feel obliged to apologise for their behaviour, they seem intent on ruining the good view that every nationality seems to have of us by default. There seems to be a subset of the Canadian population that is completely obsessed with marijuana and getting high, although marijuana use seems to be a scourge of the west in general (though a lesser scourge, relativity speaking) it seems particularly pronounced in Canada. It is one of the reasons I have never touched, and will never touch marijuana (what a cool and exciting teenager I must have been;)).

Again, of the British Commonwealth monarchies (by that I mean the U.K., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, the others are of no consequence and were never really British in character, ethnically or culturally), Canada would be the most congenial to a man of Dalrymplian sensibilities. Though I don't really know enough about New Zealand to comment, I get the impression that Australians seem to suffer from the same loutishness and yobishness that we see in modern Britain (any Australian here should feel free to correct me if my appraisal of the Aussie character is inaccurate though).

And Taiwan has illegal kindergarten teachers? what in blazes is going on down there?
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Caleb » 17 Apr 2012, 05:30

Incidentally, I think someone mentioned Mark Steyn, right? Doesn't he now live in New Hampshire, not Canada?

Darian: Yeah, there's a certain boorish element from any culture. I would generally describe New Zealanders as being quite introverted and brooding, though there's a loutishness there also amongst some.

I think your assessment of Australians is fairly correct, which is a reason I really distance myself from a lot of what is considered Australian culture (the old joke being that of an Australian and a tub of yoghurt, the tub of yoghurt is the one with more culture). Australia was founded by convicts, especially from east London (except for the state of South Australia). So, it should be no surprise there. That Australians bristle at mention of the word "convict" and then either go to great pains to explain how no one in their family tree was a convict, or conversely, take great pride in convict heritage, speaks volumes about the national psyche. There is also something in the national psyche that we are adventurers, pioneers and carvers of civilisation from the wilderness (Australia's climate must have been oppressive back in the day), which I think contributes further to the national yob culture. This also manifests itself in ruthlessly mocking the English.

Don't even get me started on the illegal kindergartens and their illegal teachers. Suffice to say, that a pejorative used by some expats here (including some Canadians!) is to call someone a Canadian kindergarten teacher. I have not gone fully native as to wear easily removed footwear to work (which is often necessary with houses here, but is de rigueur if you work in a kindergarten). I knew a British guy once who said you can tell a lot about how advanced a culture is by (how easy it is to remove) its footwear.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Gavin » 17 Apr 2012, 08:24

I hope this won't offend our friends on this forum and that they will appreciate that I also report unflinchingly on what I observe of the British people, but during my time in London I encountered quite a lot of South African and Australian (or New Zealand) people. I usually didn't dare or bother to ask whether they were Australian or New Zealand because a mistake would cause offence.

Anyway, the Australian stereotype of them being big, brash, crude, lewd, anti-intellectual - and this more than anything - sports obsessed types was usually, sadly, confirmed as true for me. That includes the women. Thus I feel for any intellectual born in that society.

With regard to the South Africans, they seem to be much the same but with the addition of an assumed superiority. I assume this comes from them living among blacks for so long with apartheid and so on, but in my experience they carry this attitude over no matter in whose company they find themselves. I have just experienced a loudness, dismissiveness and arrogance particularly from these nations, but especially from South Africans.

Both of these nations (or rather all of these three) seem to have in common with the English a worship of sport and alcohol, but it seems even worse when guests to the nation behave in this way in front of, and towards, their hosts too.

I just wonder if anyone else can confirm having observed this? There are a great deal of these people in London, because they usually have (or claim!) some link with ancient ancestors which allows them to come into London and work there. I once worked at a quango (I didn't really even know it was a quango at the time but would have exposed it now) which was almost entirely staffed by South Africans and Australians/New Zealanders.

On the whole I am in favour of these types because they are at least western, but their arrogance can at times be insufferable.

I might as well finish with a comment on Canadians and Americans. They are rarely encountered in London because it's expensive and not easy for them to get here. They must really want to come here, so usually it will be a family who have saved for a holiday, to see the sights and so on, or a highly skilled person on a work permit. I know there are reports of them also being arrogant around the world but personally I have hardly ever even heard them and never seen bad behaviour from them in my 15 years in London. When visiting Florida, also, I was generally charmed by the good manners which are totally absent in England now: for example you even addressed as "Sir" in the supermarket. At least ostensibly, manners are still important I think in the US (and probably in Canada).

Feel free to put me straight on any of this: I merely report my own experiences.
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Re: The Endgame

Postby Elliott » 17 Apr 2012, 19:39

Living in London, my flatmate and I joked that there must be no such thing as an Australian introvert, because all the Australians we met were surfer types who seemed hyper-active, hyper-happy, and hyper-outgoing. You couldn't have a serious conversation with any of them.

I never met any South Africans that I can recall.

Americans are sometimes amusing with their lack of historical sense. I can illustrate this with an example. An American tourist at Stonehenge asked a friend of mine "why didn't they build it closer to the road?" In a similar vein, when I was working at Kew Gardens an American 50-something backpacker asked me "what can I do here?", as if the prospect of a 250 year-old Royal botanic garden wasn't quite enough unless it had chutes and adventure activities.

But these are trifles. I would much rather spend time with Americans, Canadians, Australians and Kiwis than with a Frenchman, a German or an Italian - and not just because of the language barrier.
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