Defeating the Left in argument

Thoughts on socialism and leftism generally

Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Gavin » 15 Jun 2013, 12:48

Liberal: It is wrong for a people to be reduced, against their wishes, to an ethnic or cultural minority in their own ancestral homeland.

Conservative:

Screen Shot 2013-06-15 at 13.30.40.png

... Have you been to the UK lately?

Liberal: Yes, but it doesn't apply there.

Conservative: Why not?

Liberal: Because you did the slave trade and had the empire.

Conservative: Right, that empire that brought so much good to the world. The empire brought a superior, developed culture to primitive people and they are still benefitting from it now. Those who had the influence of the empire are demonstrably better off. That's the exact opposite of what is happening across Europe now. Further, arabs and blacks and thousands of other people had slaves too. Admit it, you're just a racist. You don't mind colonisation when it is brown people outnumbering whites with their culture, but you do mind when it is the other way around. You've got double standards. Racist.
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Nathan » 26 Apr 2014, 21:19

This one might be controversial, but I was wondering if anybody could think of a watertight comeback to this Leftie favourite. I came up with the idea when hearing on the news the other day about "British people" going to fight in Syria, as if we were expected to believe that it was Mr Smith and Mr Brown giving it all up to wage jihad. I'm sure I'm not the only person out there who finds the choice of word in these instances misleading and irritating.

The statement that stumps me is:

They were born here so they're just as British as you!


My personal definition of who is British is just somebody who doesn't come across as being something else, regardless of birthplace. I have a friend who was born in Ireland and who came here at age two (which I didn't find out until I had already got to know him fairly well) and as he is completely Anglicised in every way you can think of it just feels natural and normal to unhesitatingly consider him British.

Obviously it is easier for a white person to come across as "not foreign", but I've known enough people of other races with typical British names, typical British accents which gave no hint as to their ethnicity, and a native's level of ease at operating within our culture, so of course I would consider them British - why wouldn't I?

How then could I legitimately say that I don't consider the British-born but in every other sense completely alien jihadis out in Syria or Somalia or wherever to be in any meaningful sense one of us, without opening the door to the inevitable cries of raaaaaaaaaaacist or being bogged down in endless strawmen or demands of exactly where I draw the line and what gives me the right to decide these things?
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Jonathan » 26 Apr 2014, 21:27

Nathan wrote:The statement that stumps me is:

They were born here so they're just as British as you!



"I'm concerned that they may turn out to be just as British as Michael Adebolajo".
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Nathan » 26 Apr 2014, 21:51

Haha! Actually that snarl and attitude he had did seem to clearly be a product of our culture, albeit not a part of it that we might like to admit exists. If he isn't British, what else is he? His ancestry was Nigerian, but I doubt many Nigerians would properly consider him a product of their society.

Yet when I think of him I don't feel the same sense of surprise and betrayal as I did when I saw the picture of this man below, who was involved in the Muslim Patrols harassing people on the streets in London.

Image

I honestly don't intend to mean this as a racial thing, but my gut instinct on hearing about his case was "But you're one of us, how could you do something like that?!"

If he went off to Syria he would legitimately and undeniably in my eyes be "a British person fighting in Syria", regardless of his worldview, so how then could I "safely" differentiate between him and the kind of people the news articles are generally referring to?
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Elliott » 27 Apr 2014, 14:41

If you're born in a stable you're not a horse.
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Elliott » 27 Apr 2014, 14:54

Alternatively...

"If I move to China, am I Chinese?"

If he went off to Syria he would legitimately and undeniably in my eyes be "a British person fighting in Syria", regardless of his worldview, so how then could I "safely" differentiate between him and the kind of people the news articles are generally referring to?

I don't think you can. I think this is about race. We feel kinship with a white guy born in Britain; a brown or black guy born in Britain will always be on probation. It's unfortunate, but they would be exactly the same with us if we were all in their ancestral countries.
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Gavin » 27 Apr 2014, 18:28

I think they are British regarding nationality because they have - rightly or wrongly - been granted British citizenship. But they are not English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish and do not even calls themselves such - these are racial ethnicities. These people are instead from far away lands with very different cultures, which are observed to be backward for numerous reasons (in the case of Somalia and Pakistan the evidence abounds).

The trouble is, if our own culture was no so weakened by leftism and general decadence, we probably would not have let it come to this.

I think the powers that be are hoping that people born in the last decade or so will look at the Britain around them and think "'twas ever thus" - a multicultural mish-mash, and that everything will right itself in time. Perhaps it will, but I still feel a people have a right to their own culture being dominant in their homeland, especially when they never explicitly agreed to being disenfranchised. It is also likely never to right itself when the newcomers aggressively self-segregate and follow the Religion of Hate - and are supported in doing both of these things by the state.

I will soon begin listening to Edward Gibbon's great work The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, which will be long and probably very interesting. Apparently, according to Gibbon, the Roman Empire fell because it succumbed to "barbarian invasions" in large part due to the gradual loss of civic virtue among its citizens. Seems like a timely read!
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Nathan » 27 Apr 2014, 18:54

I've been meaning to read that Gibbon book for years but have never got round to it! I can well imagine that it holds a great deal of lessons for our era.

In theoretical terms I'm largely in agreement with you about the difference between British and English, Scottish etc - as is borne out by the results from the question about self-identity taken from the last census - but again, the inevitable response will be "They were born in England too so they are just as English as you!"

In practice, defining English people in racial terms seems a very leaky idea to me though, and one which opens the door wide open to all kinds of stuff about the Saxons, Huguenots etc, and responses like "I suppose you think I'm 'English' because I'm white, but actually my great-granddad was Irish so that makes the whole idea nonsense! We're all immigrants!".
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Gavin » 27 Apr 2014, 20:12

I think "English" is an ethnicity, English people being the result of a combination of several tribes of European settlers, namely Anglo-Saxons (Germanic people) and Vikings (Danes). Of course, these people presumably had a good deal of genetic material in common, each being ethnicities of the Caucasian race rather than being completely different races.

For the next thousand years or so things pretty much stayed constant, just with some European political marriages, but again people coming from ethnicities of the essentially the same race.

Then, post war, we started to see people from far-flung countries coming into the UK - people with very different cultures and of completely different races. Politicians thought it would be temporary at the time.

When people go to countries in small numbers they usually have to assimilate, they do not think they will change the host culture, and usually not much trouble is caused. I believe the present time is the first time in recorded history we have seen enormous numbers of people of a different race or culture coming to a country and settling without the invitation of the current occupants without it being a military invasion. Furthermore, because of the sheer numbers, many have been able to form their own alternative societies ("communities") and have refused to integrate.

That’s the history, in my view. Now, regarding the probable future:

People clearly do feel drawn towards their own "kind". That is why most people date and marry people of their own race - this is perhaps especially true of all the Pakistani immigrants in England (hundreds of whom will, for example, rape English girls but would only think of procreating with their own women). We are group animals. White people are certainly no more "racist" than other races regarding this in my observation (both in the workplace and out and about on the streets) - probably a lot less so.

The thing is, the Left seem to believe this can change, and they want it to change. They want to everyone to be utterly "colour blind" and presumably to intermix. This seems to be contrary to the way people do behave, and some on the left might admit this. But how people do behave is not necessarily (or is rarely) how they should behave, they might say. We must make efforts to change human nature and all live together, feeling as much a "brother" with our Pakistani or African neighbour as we do with our white neighbour.

I think this is possible to a large degree when living in close proximity, providing a common language and culture are embraced, though not entirely. People will probably always feel a special affinity to their own race, their kin. This does not, of course, imply outright hostility to another race - a mistaken assumption the Left often make, but it does suggest there will always - or at least for many decades and possibly centuries - be a resentment regarding territory shared without having been wilfully ceded.

Back to the original point, I think Englishness is an ethnicity of European "heritage" albeit somewhat mixed, and Chinese, African and Pakistani people, for example, cannot be English, nor will they ever consider themselves as such.
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Elliott » 28 Apr 2014, 08:35

Gavin wrote:People clearly do feel drawn towards their own "kind"... We are group animals...

The thing is, the Left seem to believe this can change, and they want it to change. They want to everyone to be utterly "colour blind" and presumably intermix.

The Left keep moving left. "Colour-blind" was what they were demanding we all become, and now that it's been achieved (in the legal sphere) they've moved on, and now colour-blind itself is considered racist:

4. Completely Neutral Sexism Is Like Completely Colorblind Racism: It Isn’t

If you are involved in racial justice, you’ll know that “colorblind” is the new racist mantra. It often goes hand-in-hand with the concept of “reverse racism.”

In a world with complete equality – where people of all colors have completely equal opportunity – then maybe race won’t be an issue. We don’t live in that world, so to deny race is really to back the status quo, that is, white privilege and non-white oppression.

Part of leveling the playing field to reduce inequality is about compensating for racism not ignoring it.

More information.

The Left (largely educated, middle-class whites) simply despise their own race. Gavin suggests that they want us all to intermix. I'd suggest that they want white people to vanish, one way or another.

The trouble for us, in this and so many other areas, is that the Left deceive themselves about their wishes. They would never admit, even to themselves, that they want the white race to vanish, yet everything they advocate leads to that. This is why, I think, it is so difficult to "defeat the Left in argument": they are not honest with themselves about what they are arguing for.
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Gavin » 06 May 2014, 17:56

Liberal: "It's bad how black minorities are treated across the world! We need to do more to try to help them!"


Let us take our response from a Telegraph commenter, who replied to a now deleted comment, thus:

tokyonagaremono wrote:"Your kids, if they're white, are a minority anyway. Only 8-15% of the world's people are white. Because their cultures have proved so successful - pretty much all of modern medicine and science, and the great social achievements such as the outlawing of slavery (for which the rest of the world, Africa especially, should be forever grateful) - the white minority is the one that really needs to be protected above all others."


White people are in fact projected to become minorities in their own ancestral homelands soon at current birth and mass immigration rates - something at which liberals would be aghast, were it happening the other way around.
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Nathan » 06 May 2014, 18:30

This is more a response to Elliott's last post than Gavin's, but it's perhaps worth looking at this Andrew Marr article from 1999, written at the time of one of the many enquiries into the Stephen Lawrence case - I can't remember if I have linked to it before.

It's about the most honest article I have read into left-wingers' view of racism - that it's predominantly a white problem, a natural instinct, admittedly, but as miscegenation is too difficult to arrange as public policy it can only be dealt with raising more taxes, employment quotas, and it requires "the vigorous use of state power to repress and coerce", and that this repression "can be a great civilising force for good", and "stamp hard on certain 'natural' beliefs for long enough and you can almost kill them off".

As we've pointed out before, racism is seen entirely through a black-white prism, though black people are not the largest minority group in the country.

I find the article fascinating as a historical document. It's only 15 years old, but reads like a classic example of the thinking of the early Blair years. Nowadays it would get torn to pieces if opened up to comments and seems dated in the light of the many Muslim incidents of more recent years, but the 1990s had no bulwark against this kind of ideology at all.
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Yessica » 06 May 2014, 19:12

Nathan wrote:Obviously it is easier for a white person to come across as "not foreign", but I've known enough people of other races with typical British names, typical British accents which gave no hint as to their ethnicity, and a native's level of ease at operating within our culture, so of course I would consider them British - why wouldn't I?


I wouldn't. Just my personal opinion.
I have met several people who said "I speak German better than most Germans, am a success at my job and know a lot about German culture. Why don't you consider me German".
For me it is like membership in a family. I think I have mentioned that before.

Say a person would turn up at a family event and tell everybody "I have studied the history of your family, talk like you, appreciate your family culture and I am a succes at my job. Now I want you to consider me your brother". I would say "No, sorry. Great your doing so well at work and thanks for appreciating us... but you are not a relative... which does not mean I hate you by the way".

Being German is a little bit different. I do not really feel close to all kinds of Germans as different "cultures" exist within our Nation. I do for example not feel Bavarian at all (although people from other Nations do believe we all are Bavarian).

Typically though a Nation has one culture and one shared heritage. I do not think a culture can be learned. I have seen footage of East Asians playing German classical music which was perfect from a technical point of view but the emotions were not there.
I have heard blacks say the same thing about white rappers.

As for genes, I have talked to a friend who is a student of biology with the focus on genetics. He said that we can today tell which "races" a person is by knowing his DNA. I have however heard that continental Europeans have a lot of East Asian DNA which seperates them from the English. My son was born with the Mongolian spot, which according to the nurses is quite common.
A fun fact I learned from a rather unreliable page when doing some research about the Mongolian spot: A lot of continental Europeans (who do not know it) can trace their male line back to Ghengis Khan or a male relative. This can be easily proven as the Y-chromosome is directly passed from the father to the son.

There are some companies today which can tell you were your "genetic home" is. Has any of you done that so far? It sounds exiting.
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Yessica » 06 May 2014, 19:16

Just did sone quick google search. 16 Million men are believed to be direct descendants of Ghengis Khan. That is 0,5% of the male world population.

I would rather not like to imagine how he must have behaved in order to have so many descendants today.
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Re: Defeating the Left in argument

Postby Paul » 06 May 2014, 20:58

I've heard that about Genghis Khan, though I heard the proportion was even higher.

I've also heard that a lot of 'traditional' North European people have (of did have) about 4% Neanderthal DNA. As the Neanderthals of Northern climates were overrun by Homo Sapiens, there occurred apparently, the greatest mass rape in human history - about 35,000 years ago.

Neanderthals had by the way, bigger brains than Homo Sapiens or so I've heard. About 1600 grams on average compared to the modern average of 1300 grams.

I'm not sure how much of this is 'proven' or accepted in the mainstream scientific communities.
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