Islam in the UK

Islam is, for now, included under this topic

Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 28 Jul 2016, 14:23

I agree with you on several points here (and I invite comment from any other readers).

I think it's true that the authorities fear native backlash more than Muslim barbarity. Not necessarily because it will be more brutal - it most likely wouldn't be - but because the Muslims are constantly on a hair-trigger anyway with their claimed victimhood (even while nothing at all happens to them), and this would be the beginning of tit-for-tat that would escalate into the civil war.

They don't want the civil war because it would mean a lot of killing and indeed they would likely be held accountable eventually.

I agree with you about Brexit too. We are living through strange times indeed when the media only ever talk about economics but the Brexit vote was most likely nothing to do that and everything to do with identity and a fury about having to pay for our own colonisation by retarded cultures. I don't think there was ever a time previously when the media routinely lied about what is obvious to all, but at least, thank goodness, now we have the Internet as an alternative.

When I say we will get our country back I do not mean without bloodshed. There will likely be widespread bloodshed, and this is indeed a disturbing prospect. But we have to get it back. I can only hope that those communities whose way of life is antithetical to ours will see the writing on the wall before this point, pack bags and leave for the their cultural homelands. We only have this one, and they're not having it.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 28 Jul 2016, 14:45

The only alternative to civil war, I think, if the Muslims do not break Europeans with one atrocity too many, is a long, long haul whereby through civil debate, reason and argument, we eventually turn them around to our way of life and they integrate. (You might have seen Paul Weston's recent essays discussing these different possibilities.) I don't think Islam can be reformed at all, so I mean, really, more and more Muslims abandoning Islam for our way of life instead.

The trouble is a lot will need to be in place to make this happen. Our vapid commercialism and hedonism is not enough of an alternative. Nor our ridiculous "equality" whereby we try to claim that everyone is the same and men are the same as women etc. Even the Muslims can no doubt see this for the nonsense it is. So we would need a reformation first. But I think that necessary reformation will probably come after the war, the conflagration, and not before.

Other barriers to Muslims being persuaded around are ethnic ones and the fact that, while we are continually called "racist", Muslims of course would never consider allowing their women, for example, to marry an atheist white man (and become atheist themselves). There are strong barriers up against this and for a long time yet they will even kill their women rather than have it happen (on the very rare occasions it even might!). Islam itself has built-in protection for apostasy and sentences to death those who wish to leave so this is another serious obstacle. A programme of official state protection might even need to be offered to those who wish to leave. (This is a long way from current policy which largely denies any problems with Islam and instead white-washes the death-cult.)

I often chat with friends about whether there is anything that might tip the Brits over the edge and make them turn off "Strictly Come Dancing" or whatever it is they're watching and think about what is happening to the country which their ancestors built and which they have been fortunate enough to inherit. I think there really are some things. A successful attack on the Royals, for example. I think there are things that would make our underclass grasp the opportunity to vent frustrations that have welled over a very long time, and even some hitherto civilised people might pick up weapons and matches and leave their houses to visit local mosques. (Disclaimer: I'm not encouraging this, readers, merely speculating.)

I wonder if other readers think there is anything at all that could tip Europeans in general over the edge and make them determined to reclaim their territory and their way of life in their own countries, before demographics simply win by default via democracy. This bearing in mind that at the last election not enough of the remaining British people even wanted to elect UKIP!
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Andy JS » 28 Jul 2016, 16:41

Theodore Dalrymple himself lives in Shropshire when he's residing in England, so Gavin has perhaps made a good choice of where to live.

I also think it's a pity the forum is so quiet at the moment. I enjoy reading most of the posts on here, but I'm a bit lazy in terms of writing posts myself. On the positive side, a lot of now popular forums and blogsites started off very quietly for the first few years of their existence.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Charlie » 28 Jul 2016, 17:28

Like Danny mentioned in his excellent post, it's hard not to be pessimistic, but as glib as it may sound, we have to remain strong, don't we?

As regards an Islamic reformation, I agree with you, Gavin: I don't think that one will be coming any time soon. As Dalrymple and others have said, Islam is notable for its absolutism, which is what makes it seem strong. Yet it's incredibly brittle, too.

As for what the tipping point will be, who can say? My mind, though, whenever this topic comes up, always starts thinking about the benefits system. This is something that we have discussed previously, of course, but I'd like to see people focus on it more. One way or another we have to find a way to turn their benefits tap off.

I have no idea how one would go about it, of course, but I'd wager that there are a lot of people put there who would agree with us, and there aren't enough taxpayers to fund the present system anyway. And as we all know, that situation is not going to improve, is it?

I just can't help but think that many Muslims would (have to) skidaddle if the gibsmedats dried up.

They can't milk the system for all it's worth forever.

Oh, and I've long been a fan of Steve Sailer's cousin marriage ban idea. And I reckon that a lot of Pakistani ladies in this country would probably like the idea, too.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Danny » 31 Jul 2016, 17:48

I guess the biggest mistake in my most recent post was to talk of bloodshed as a distant prospect, when in fact hundreds have been slaughtered on European streets this summer alone.

“I think it's true that the authorities fear native backlash more than Muslim barbarity. Not necessarily because it will be more brutal - it most likely wouldn't be - but because the Muslims are constantly on a hair-trigger anyway with their claimed victimhood (even while nothing at all happens to them), and this would be the beginning of tit-for-tat...”


Traditionally, the left has ascribed violence committed by members of minority groups to ‘alienation’; whereas acts of violence against minorities are invariably attributed to ‘hate’.

The authorities don’t welcome violence on the part of minorities, but they don’t regard it as – empirically – the same thing as violence committed by members of the majority. Historically, one was a response to a social evil, the other a product of individual wickedness.

Muslim violence has complicated this narrative.

Islam is a violent ideology, and Muslim violence will continue for so long as large numbers of Muslims live in our midst.

But Muslim violence is merely a symptom, not the sickness itself.

The root issue is our own cultural self-loathing, or what John Derbyshire calls ethnomasochism: http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/after-th ... y-in-nice/

Self-hatred is a dangerous trait in an individual, and in a society, it is disastrous. It blinds us to what is good about our (traditional) way of life, and prevents us criticising what is so obviously rotten in alien cultures.

This self-loathing caused past governments to open borders to millions of immigrants in the first place, and has left a frank debate on the compatibility of Islam and Western culture all but impossible.

“I agree with you about Brexit too. We are living through strange times indeed when the media only ever talk about economics but the Brexit vote was most likely nothing to do that and everything to do with identity and a fury about having to pay for our own colonisation by retarded cultures.”


Brexit revealed two things – the alienation of the people from party politics, and the liberal establishment's contempt for the white majority. Since its onset, mass immigration has been enormously unpopular among ordinary people, and in particular those communities which have been transformed by a series of influxes from the third world. Brexit presented ordinary people with a unique opportunity to express their frustrations and embarrass the political class.

It's no surprise that the BBC has largely ignored this aspect of the story - the polite media would rather restrict its coverage of immigration to stories of hijabis winning televised flan-making contests.

Reading anything the BBC publishes on immigration, one can almost sense the journalist’s unease. Immigration in itself is always portrayed as a non-issue. The real issue, of course, is the prospect of a backlash™.

The average Briton recognises that there are good reasons why Bath looks like Bath and Mogadishu looks like Mogadishu – and that British cities of the future will be looking a damn sight more like Somalia than Somerset if present trends continue.

Is there for a hope for a peaceful resolution? I sincerely hope so. But time is short – and the worse things get, the bloodier our future promises to be.

As you observe, contemporary British culture – such as it is, is not an appealing alternative to Islam.

What’s needed – in Britain, and in Europe generally - is a rediscovery of national identity; a recognition that western nations lost direction in the aftermath of the war and are in need of cultural renewal. The old parties have shown themselves to be useless. We desperately need a new politics.

A re-evaluation of welfare culture – as Charlie – suggests, would be an excellent start.

A lurch to the right would necessarily require minorities to question whether they wish to continue living in our midst, but tough. This is our country, and we have no other.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 02 Aug 2016, 14:34

Great post again, Danny, if I may say so. Many thoughts occur to me about our predicament that I don't have space to cram into the Twitter too. I use that mainly just to keep up with the craziness and to point to various things which I personally have read (I am trying to avoid the word "share"!). I will try to float some of these thoughts with you all at some point, but I'm sure we're all busy with other things, and there isn't always time.

It certainly is interesting though, and perhaps prudent and necessary, to try to predict where this is all going. I try to expose it relentlessly on the Twitter (as do many others, of course) and we can consider it in more depth here. Because the Overton Window has opened up a fair bit more in the last two years due to the constant Muslim attacks, I have just moved our thread "What are you going to do if there is a war?" from a small private area of the forum into the main public area. This is a topic that's been on my mind just recently. I'm ever-interested to predict exactly how such a conflict might unfold. Cities such as Birmingham and London would go first, martial law likely imposed, communities would likely split down ethnic lines, for good or bad. How it would go depends on many factors. Global events, the government in power, when it happens. I think Paul Weston is right that the closest comparison would be the 1990s conflict in Bosnia/Herzegovina.

We would be looking at brutal conflict, but if it happened relatively soon, we'd win it, simply through numbers and through the fact that we control the military. Increasing political correctness might change that. On the other hand, it might not come about at all, moderate Muslims might prevail, these attacks might be mere nips on a lion's back and we will all settle on values to which we can agree. (Unlikely, granted, but let's consider everything.) All this is perhaps best considered in that thread, but what I would say is that it is worth at this point at least contemplating exactly what you do intend to do personally if matters take off:

Are you going to fight or fly in order to protect your family? And isn't it interesting that strong and brave who stand and fight in these situations are often killed, while those who run survive? Let's hope those strong people have at least passed on their genes first. In certain cases also, we must bear in mind, it can be better to back off and re-group before re-taking an area. It's all for that thread, but I would say that given the possibility of more widespread civil disorder in the future (after all, remember the riots?) is isn't paranoid now at the least have a bug-out bag prepared, in the case of any eventuality - it's only prudent.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Andy JS » 24 Mar 2017, 14:28

I have just read this in the Telegraph:

"Masood, may have eventually snapped because of racism in his village leading him to slash the face of a cafe owner.
It is thought he may have then been radicalised while in jail, eventually leading to his involvement in terrorism."
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gabriel » 24 Mar 2017, 15:31

Just, no. Each human being is responsible for his own actions, excluding those who suffer from mental problems (although it doesn't excuse anyone from facing the consequences). This kind of thought ("ooh he suffers so much, he isn't to blame) just perpetuates crime.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Danny » 01 May 2017, 16:29

A little belated, I know, but thanks Charlie and Gavin for your kind words.

While it’s good to see WD’s Twitter feed going strong, it’s a shame to see the board so quiet. Any ideas how we can revive debate here?

I see WD as the anti/pol/ - a civilised corner of the conservative internet, where users have time to pen considered responses to world events…

Despite the pessimism of my recent posts, it’s possible to see some green shoots - Brexit, Trump (an imperfect candidate, to be sure, but a welcome break from scheduled programming) and the rise of the alt-right online and on the streets.

Re: Gavin's post. Apologies if I go a little off topic here:

My feeling is that we’re approaching peak-liberalism and a period of reaction.

Notably, support for Le Pen is highest among the young. For millennials the problems caused by multiculturalism are more tangible than the horrors of Nazism. Witness the new breed of reactionary YouTubers in their early twenties…

As the problems caused by mass migration grow ever more acute, and the spectre of Nazism passes from our historical memory, so the taboo against expressions of national identity will pass.

Muslim terrorism, which is going to persist for so long as guys named Mohammad are free to purchase kitchenware, is the right’s best recruiting tool. Western jihadis were invited to live among us, and have chosen to repay our misguided hospitality with war.

The liberal response to the endless cycle of terrorist outrages – mawkish displays of vapid sentimentality – have served to highlight the emptiness of the postmodern worldview.

I don’t *want* violence, but I believe that western civilisation *is* worth fighting for. And honestly, I see the prospect of a cataclysm, followed by a thorough re-evaluation of the errors of this era, as a preferable alternative to the future JG Ballard warned of:

“The future is going to be boring. The suburbanisation of the planet will continue, and the suburbanisation of the soul will follow soon after”

This is best-case scenario of the globalists, the post-national Utopia of by Davos Man and the remainers. A dull, deracinated world, which recognises profit and ease as the only goods. The worst-case scenario is a chaotic state of perpetual conflict with the minorities in our midst.

I hope for something better.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Danny » 03 May 2017, 16:26

While it’s good to see WD’s Twitter feed going strong, it’s a shame to see the board so quiet. Any ideas how we can revive debate here?

I see WD as the anti/pol/ - a civilised corner of the conservative internet, where users have time to pen considered responses to world events…

Despite the pessimism of my earlier posts, it’s possible to see some green shoots - Brexit, Trump (an imperfect candidate, to be sure, but a welcome break from scheduled programming) and the rise of the alt-right online and on the streets.

My feeling is that we’re approaching peak-liberalism and a period of reaction.

Notably, support for Le Pen is highest among the young. For millennials the problems caused by multiculturalism are more tangible than the horrors of Nazism. Witness the new breed of reactionary YouTubers in their early twenties…

As the problems caused by mass migration grow ever more acute, and the spectre of Nazism passes from our historical memory, so the taboo against expressions of national identity will pass.

Muslim terrorism, which is going to persist for so long as guys named Mohammad are free to purchase kitchenware, is the right’s best recruiting tool. An older, sillier generation invited jihadists to live among us, and they have chosen to repay this misguided hospitality with war.

The liberal response to the endless cycle of terrorist outrages – mawkish displays of vapid sentimentality – have served to highlight the emptiness of the postmodern worldview.

I don’t *want* violence - I sincerely hope that bloodshed can be avoided - but I do believe that western civilisation *is* worth fighting for. And honestly, I see the prospect of a cataclysm, followed by a thorough re-evaluation of the errors of this era, as a preferable alternative to the future JG Ballard warned of:

The future is going to be boring. The suburbanisation of the planet will continue, and the suburbanisation of the soul will follow soon after


This is best-case scenario of the globalists, the post-national Utopia of Davos Man and the remainers. A dull, deracinated world, which recognises profit and ease as the only goods. The worst-case scenario is a chaotic state of perpetual conflict with the minorities in our midst.

I hope for something better.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 12 May 2017, 09:06

Excuse me not moderating this post very quickly and you needing to post twice. The board has a kind of plug-in that is supposed to inform me of new posts that need authorising (as is the case for the first few posts from new users) but it has not been doing so. I'll have a look into that.

Yes, the forum is quiet largely because people had said a lot they had to say and because a lot of activity was stimulated by user "Elliott", who these days has his own YouTube channel.

But yes, I see the forum as you do. It is not white nationalist but it is strongly civic nationalist and anti-political correctness. I think of it as about the same pitch as Stefan Molyneux's material, which I later discovered. John Derbyshire, too. I rarely hear anything with which I disagree in his podcast.

I think we're just all busy and we largely know what needs to be done. It is now just a case of whether it is done in a democratic political manner or done eventually "at street level". We're all watching, unable to do much else. But this forum remains here as a place to comment along with the tweets. btw Of course the tweets don't purport to represent the point of view of all users, though they probably do.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Jonathan » 20 May 2017, 20:21

it’s a shame to see the board so quiet. Any ideas how we can revive debate here?


The board's had quiet periods in the past, if I recall correctly. I think the reasons Gavin gave are true, but I also think that they point to the answer to your question. New information and new perspectives will stimulate discussion. That's how it is for me, at least - when someone reports an event he witnessed, and interprets it in a manner I did not anticipate, it gets the gears in my mind turning.

My feeling is that we’re approaching peak-liberalism and a period of reaction. Notably, support for Le Pen is highest among the young...


Trump and Brexit are definitely a reaction, but my fear is that the left will double down successfully. Every further bombing will be portrayed by the media as a reaction to the Islamophobia expressed by Trump's election. The young who support Le Pen will take decades until they control the levers of power, and the older members of the political parties will do their best to select those who fit the dominant zeitgeist. The number of young muslims will grow faster than the number of young Europeans, and soon they will have their own political parties, or established parties will come to depend on them. In four to eight years we could have all gone back to Macron-clones preaching business as usual, until eight years later the bombings have become so frequent that the military forces an intervention - if their forces have not been eviscerated or subverted in the meantime.

The analogy which comes to my mind (talk about different perspectives) is that after the Israeli elections of 1996, in which Netanyahu got 51% of the vote and established a right-wing government. This was back in the early days of the Oslo Accords (the Israeli version of Europe's current predicament), in which Perpetual Peace was just around the corner, and the media was treating Netanyahu much the same way that Marine Le Pen got treated. The occasional bus bombing with its 20 charred corpses was just more proof how important it was to vote against Netanyahu.

Anyway, my point is that to get elected in 96, he had to promise not to overturn the Oslo Accords, and he kept this promise as Prime Minister, yielding more territory and more control to the PLO. It was only in 2001 - after another left-wing PM rose and fell, after a year and a half of incessant bombings and shootings - that a PM even more right-wing than Netanyahu finally decided that enough was enough.

I don't live in Europe (or in Britain, I suppose I ought to add), so I'm not really in a position to gauge how strongly the political winds are blowing. But I don't think anyone in power now in Europe (except perhaps in Hungary or Poland) has the political will to take strong measures; the half-measures will be ineffective, and their failure will serve as proof that no measures ought to have been taken. Europe's slide into war will be more protracted than the five years it took Israel between 1996 and 2001; when the moment comes, it will be a roller-coaster ride through the first intifada (stones and molotov cocktails) to the second one (shootings and suicide bombings). The influx of experienced fighters will shorten the muslim learning curve.

I'm probably repeating myself, but at this point I see each European nation choosing its fate from a Macabre Menu of Doom (tm), in which the travails of all the nations in the middle east are listed, from the ongoing Arab Spring all the way back to 1929. Disintegrate (Libya), Arm-wrestle for control of a monolith (Egypt), succumb to slow Islamization (Turkey), Fragment geographically (Iraq), Balkanize into civil war (Lebanon), survive via genocide (Syria). The best that could be hoped for is for a timely abandonment of leftism, secure borders, an adequate military, a resolute citizenry (= no white flight) and a resurgent birth rate. With all these, it might be possible to hold the jihad at bay, while still maintaining civil liberties and a productive economy. To Israeli eyes, that's what Israel looks like.

Ok, now I *know* I'm repeating myself. No apologies - Gavin warned you this might happen. :)


The future is going to be boring. The suburbanisation of the planet will continue, and the suburbanisation of the soul will follow soon after


First time I've heard that quote. I'd say that the last part - suburbanization of the soul - has already happened, and it is precisely this which caused the decadence of the west (of which Dalrymple is the best observer I know), and its reflexive genuflexion towards Islam. Better disaster than boredom.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Gavin » 27 May 2017, 09:41

Something I was thinking about recently is how, on occasion, I have seen a Muslim mufti, Imam, or whatever concede that a British person is "good". It might have been Tommy Robinson visiting a mosque some years ago to speak with these Muslims or something like that. When the Brit is being reasonable, the Muslim is forced to concede this but I noticed he commonly does so in the context of Islam and comments as follows: "Yes, yes.. he will [or would] make [a] good Muslim".

He's saying, somewhat patronisingly, that there might be hope for this person but the only way he can ever truly be good is when he reaches the state of being a Muslim, like the speaker, and he might even be implying that that time will surely come - because ultimately as numbers swell the infidel will have no choice. Islam has a history of converting by the sword.

In the book Soumission the male leftists ultimately realise that it's just going to be easier for them (if not for women) if they just go along with it and convert. They don't even have to be very devout, they just have to call themselves Muslim and not present any obstruction to what the more devout Muslims have in mind. They are only a step away from dhimmitude really, or at least they are a part of a new, willing, Vichy regime. For the opportunist and relativist leftist, this is an easy decision, especially as it involves no fighting and no recognition of any "other" (no "racism" either - bonus!). But they end up living under a totalitarian state.

Back to my original point, it is understandable that these Muslims are unable to see anyone as truly good unless they are Muslim, and any virtue must be understood in terms of potential to be Muslim, even if this is a supremely arrogant way to behave in someone else's country. It is entirely in alignment with the teaching of the Qur'an, and ultimately our political class are going to have to point out how hateful this is (as does Geert Wilders) if we are to survive.
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Charlie » 27 May 2017, 16:53

Danny wrote:I see WD as the anti/pol/ - a civilised corner of the conservative internet, where users have time to pen considered responses to world events…


Abandon autism all ye who enter here...
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Re: Islam in the UK

Postby Jonathan » 27 May 2017, 19:11

They are only a step away from dhimmitude really


'Proleptic Dhimmitude', is a phrase I once heard to describe this. Google attributes it to a Prof. Richard Landes.

Incidentally, I just finished reading 'The Tragedy of the Korosko', a short story by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. It describes Islam and Muslims in the plainest terms, completely free of any political correctness. I saw it mentioned on Mark Steyn's website, and found it on the gutenberg project: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/12555

A group of Englishmen (and one Frenchman) are taken captive by Dervishes on the border between Egypt and Sudan.

A short quote:
The excited gestures of Monsieur Fardet drew the sinister eyes of the Baggara chief upon him. Again he asked a curt question, and Mansoor, kneeling in front of him, answered it.

"Tell him that I am a Frenchman, dragoman. Tell him that I am a friend of the Khalifa. Tell him that my countrymen have never had any quarrel with him, but that his enemies are also ours."

"The chief asks what religion you call your own," said Mansoor. "The Khalifa, he says, has no necessity for any friendship from those who are infidels and unbelievers."

"Tell him that in France we look upon all religions as good."

"The chief says that none but a blaspheming dog and the son of a dog would say that all religions are one as good as the other. He says that if you are indeed the friend of the Khalifa, you will accept the Koran and become a true believer upon the spot. If you will do so he will promise on his side to send you alive to Khartoum."

"And if not?"

"You will fare in the same way as the others."

"Then you may make my compliments to monsieur the chief, and tell him that it is not the custom for Frenchmen to change their religion under compulsion."


No soumission here.
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