Stephen Fry

Discussion of various public figures

Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Rachel » 01 Mar 2012, 20:33

Hi Tomasz,
Welcome to the forum.

I'm sorry but I agree with Caleb. Poland was well known for it's anti semitism before the war and immediatly after.

My grandmother and grandfather on my mother's side were Polish Jews. (Ilza/Radom and Czestochowa.)
They left Poland in 1939 for Palestine.

My grandmother said that the Polish friends she had at school were lovely people but once when she visited my grandfather in the Polish army she had stones thrown at her by youths with the chants of "Dirty Jew".
There was also the Kielce pogram in Poland after the war in 1946.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

Obviously Poland is a different country now. I do not know much about Poland but the few people I know who have visited say good things about it.
It's like Caleb said, a lot of European countries did things in that era that were not good.

I hope you decide to stay on the forum because I liked reading you comments on the "BBC dramatisation" thread.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Tomasz » 01 Mar 2012, 21:20

First thing. I can't argue that there was antisemitism in Poland before war. As it was in USA, Britain and other countries. Point is that by centuries Poland was best place for Jews in whole Europe. Jews were object of persecutions across Europe, with one exepction - Poland. This was reason why Poland was home for more Jews that all rest of Earth together.

Second thing. You say about awful tragedy as Kielce. One is sure - Jews were killed. No one is sure by why. There is strong posiibility about provocation made by communists.

Now. Most important. Kielce happened before war, anti-Jewish incidents before war. What Stephen Fry did, and You and Caleb repeated, is accusing my nation to be guilty Holocaust. I have to repeat whota I already stated to Caleb - very typical poor historical knowledge about terms of german occupation in Polandp- very sad and common fact in West.

Aha.One more fact. Idea of Jewish independent state in Palestine before war was supported by Poland. Money and weapon was send for Hagana and Irgun between 1935-39. Nowdays, only "thank you" is more and more false accusations against Poles.

Moderator this site, in his welcome post,wery true stated, that we Poles are "scapegoats" in modern times. Wery sad that also for participans this forum. My advice now is not to respond me, as You don't have any historical knowledge to do this. but read more about WWII in Poland.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Arthur » 01 Mar 2012, 21:40

Rachel,

My paternal grandparents were Ashkenazim as well. I thus have a Jewish surname which unfortunately attracts attention from anti-semites and "illuminati" conspiracists.

I believe that although the War and Holocaust are both covered in schools, there is not enough contextual detail on the state of Europe in the interbellum period (1918-1939) or the governments of occupied countries during the conflict for people to properly apportion blame. Of course everyone will say Hitler (and Mussolini) were bad, but the other nations involved would benefit from more careful consideration than they are usually afforded.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Darian » 01 Mar 2012, 22:28

I think we are all getting a little off topic here.

Tomasz: I don't think anyone here is accusing Poland of being guilty of the Holocaust, and I do not believe people should carry any collective guilt for the past actions of any of their countrymen. I know Poles suffered greatly during the war and many millions were put to death (my grandfather lived in Poland during this period, though an ethnic Ukrainian). The fact is that anti-Jewish sentiment was high in almost every European country and some people were happy to see the Jews exterminated, but this not unique to Poland and I'm sure a number of Frenchmen and other occupied peoples were happy to see the Jews slaughtered as well.

I do not presume to be an expert on Polish history (or even very knowledgeable of it) and you are quite right in saying that there were worse places to be a Jew during the pre-war period, but few nations in Europe have clean records when it comes to the persecution of the Jews.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Tomasz » 01 Mar 2012, 22:52

Darian.Thank you for quite fair opinion. Simply I could'n not react when Caleb stated "The rest of Europe to varying degrees gleefully participated in the Holocaust or went along with it."
It souns like accusing Poles and all Europe equally, which is not true. As You noticed, anti-semitism was widespread. Wery sad fact but fact. Holocaust was planned by Germans and made by Germans, and this is second fact. Third fact, absolutely fair away from topic is that Polish-Jewish relations are very complicated, with anti-semitism in Poland and polonophobia among Jews, with Kielce tragedy one one side and Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupiers on second hand.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Gavin » 02 Mar 2012, 00:31

Hi everyone. Tomasz, I don't think you need to take any of these comments personally. Obviously the Germans engineered the holocaust, nobody is denying their principal responsibility, just making the point that many other European countries were often complicit to a degree greater than is often thought. These all seem fair points to me. Let's leave it at that please and get back to the issue of this thread: Fry and how annoying he is.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Rachel » 04 Mar 2012, 20:41

Tomasz wrote:....Third fact, absolutely fair away from topic is that Polish-Jewish relations are very complicated, with anti-semitism in Poland and polonophobia among Jews, with Kielce tragedy one one side and Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupiers on second hand.


I did not want to respond to this thread. But then I read "Jewish collaboration with Soviet occupiers".
That really annoyed me. I thought it was only a few loonies that believed that. Do Poles really believe that Jews in their country collaborated with Soviets or brought Communism to their country?
If they do then that's very sad. Especially when you considered what happened there.
There weren't many Jews left in the Poland after the war because the Nazis killed most of them. They were not in a fit state to collaborate with anything.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Elliott » 03 Apr 2012, 01:48

Just to say that Mr Fry can be right sometimes:

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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Gavin » 03 Apr 2012, 10:56

Yes, he's absolutely right on this I think. This is what I was trying to get at in our thread about depression actually. People who get into this state put everybody else off them and become their own worst enemy, so it's to be avoided at all costs.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Elliott » 11 May 2012, 14:11

This is an example of what happens when you get rid of Christianity (or at least, some all-pervasive moral code).

Stephen Fry met Peter Hitchens at his (Hitchens) brother's memorial service. Later, Fry posted a disparaging tweet about Peter Hitchens:

The sad element was Peter Hitchens, though bro might have at least a 10th of the wit, charm & intelligence. Just a joyless Daily Mail clod.


Does anyone think it is a "good" thing to do, to publicly insult somebody after you just met them at their brother's memorial service?
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Gavin » 11 May 2012, 14:45

This speaks volumes about Fry, doesn't it? What odious behaviour.

Meanwhile, after seeing Hitchens challenge Brand, and reading his recent article on the Tories, my opinion of him has risen further - and that article you posted is a great read! Had me laughing out loud.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Gavin » 11 May 2012, 17:05

Speaking of Fry, his fellow liberal Johann Hari wrote this article some time ago, critical of Fry's take on the issue of homosexual grooming of young boys. I think on this one Hari was right, but it seemed to disappear into the ether, it could not penetrate the consciousness of Fry's army of devoted fans.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Gavin » 03 Nov 2012, 10:21

In this thread:

An ex-BBC sound engineer wrote:Stephen Fry: two faced. That avuncular, charming, witty persona turns on and off with practised ease. Likes you for as long as you laugh at his wit and marvel at his erudition.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Elliott » 03 Nov 2012, 11:15

That doesn't surprise me at all.

What somebody needs to tell Fry is that, while he is witty and erudite like his idol Oscar Wilde, he doesn't have a single interesting thing to say - just like his idol Oscar Wilde.
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Re: Stephen Fry

Postby Robert » 21 Nov 2012, 13:01

Pope's words seem appropriate:
"damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer,
and without sneering teach the rest to sneer."
He haunts our hollowed out culture like a miasma.
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