Examples of social decline, especially in the UK


Postby Gavin » 02 Sep 2014, 17:35

We probably need a thread on modern narcissism, even though this topic permeates many others, in particular feminism.

What made me think of the matter today was this story about the celebrity women, photos of whom, naked, have apparently been stolen and leaked across the Internet.

While the theft is obviously wrong, the question which has not been asked is: What are these women doing taking photos of themselves naked and uploading them to their cloud accounts?!

This is not normal behaviour, surely. Or is it, among today's young women? Many are single by choice, and perhaps they just think they are so fantastic that it is enough for them now to simply photograph themselves and gaze at their own (external) beauty?

Could it be our friend narcissism again, running rampant? That alibi of feminism and arguable cause of why western women are not marrying or reproducing at anything like a rate that will match the Muslim women already in their countries. Could be... this latest story could be a symptom of that.

As for the impact of the event on the celebrities of this particular story, I cannot see that it will be that bad. They have bodies, much the same as millions of others, people will see them, so what. Perhaps it was an act of narcissism to do this in the first place and it is an act of the same to be making a particular fuss about it now (especially it if transpires they chose easily cracked passwords for their accounts).

If they did not choose insecure passwords, Apple should be liable, but again it seems to me this could be laughed off. "Yes, I have a body. Look while you can - it won't happen again!". Or perhaps I am wrong and need to better understand this from a woman's point of view - which is partly why I make this post.
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Kevin R » 03 Sep 2014, 19:29

This is fortuitous Gavin. I had planned to write an introductory post on this very subject the other day, but haven't yet had the time to do it justice in a proper post.

Narcissism seems to me to resemble nothing so much as a kind of permafrost that underlies much of the behavioural changes we lament so much on this forum. It's taxonomy seems vast now, with many differing forms of the pathology. Historically, thinkers seem to see the attribution extending as far back as the early Romantic period, the crisis of faith, and the shift of emphasis from God to man, and inevitably from the eternal to the contingent. Since then, it's just been a matter of growth of the concept with the advent of Man as his own moral universe, and the inevitable shift into relativism and solipsism.

I'm limited by time at the moment, but will try and write some more on this. Would be fascinating in the meantime to hear what other members of the forum think about it..
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Paul » 03 Sep 2014, 20:07

Synchronicity. I've mentioned this very concept and used the word several times in the last couple of weeks. Unfortunately most of the people I've said it to don't really know the meaning of the word. Even my Mother seemed bemused, as she was half listening to me, in competition with mindless TV. Maybe she doesn't hear words like this any more, or more likely she hasn't heard them for many a long year. She did after all spend most of her working life in an English state school, surrounded by dross - and then the pupils too!
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Charlie » 05 Sep 2014, 07:25

I was reminded of this thread when I read this interview with Frank Furedi for Knack, a Belgian publication.

What he says about the beheading videos is obvious, in a way, yet - to the best of my knowledge - Furedi is the only commentator to have said it so far…

De haat en vernielzucht zijn haast ondraaglijk, maar tegelijkertijd druipen die filmpjes van het narcisme. Kijk naar mij, de held voor vijf minuten. Het zijn een soort selfies, gemaakt in een gruwelcontext. Uiteraard is dat niet de essentie, de filmpjes zijn vooral een buitengewoon efficiënte manier om de achterban te motiveren en tegelijkertid het moreel te ondergraven van een tegenstander die veel sterke en beter bewapend is.

Rough translation:
The hate and destructive mania are almost unbearable, but at the same time the clips are dripping with narcissism. Look at me - I’m the hero for five minutes. They’re kind of like selfies, taken in a context of horror. That’s not the essence, of course, [but] the clips are an incredibly efficient way to motivate their supporters, and at the same time undermine an opponent who is a lot stronger and better armed.
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Gavin » 05 Sep 2014, 08:22

I will answer Charlie's point, but for now take a look at this vacuous account that has just followed us on Twitter. It reminds me of "Just Girly Things". You'd hope it was a parody, but sadly this level of thought is, in my experience, typical of many women.

p.s. This one followed us too - it seems to be even more idiotic and inane.
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Yessica » 06 Sep 2014, 05:39

I do not know why women post pictures of their naked bodies online. I don't do it ;)... but honestly I do not think women are any more narcisstic then men (some of whom blog/twitter about collecting speeding tickets, getting drunk). At least a beautiful body is "sort of" an accomplishment... it proofs you are not too much into crisps and icecream... while getting drunk or speeding... what was so special about that again?... in how far it is something that proofs your value?... in how far it is to be adored?
As far as I am concerned it only shows you have no concern for your own safety or those of others.

I also noticed that there is a fair share of men amongst the "went to to the fancy restaurant and ate this fancy thing" bloggers.

Re: war images vs. girly things: To my mind a great number of wars get started for purely narcissistic reasons... e.g. Hitler is said to have wanted a war before a round birthday, that is how he is said to have chosen the time to attack Poland, the other day I have talked to some naive men who thought that there would be a war with Russia and said they would welcome it so they could "proof their worth" (those are of the kind, who never did anything for their country... they want to die for it but cannot be bother to finish their college degree in the due time, or if the don't plan to fisnish college to start working).
Why not proof your worth on civy street? Hic Rhodos, hic salta.

Do not get me wrong. I think both posting nude images and writing about your latest binge drinking episode are equally idiotic.
Both sexes are capable of a massive amount of vanity and narcissism. Luckily both sexes are also capable of altruism and self-abandonment at the same time... and sometimes you are really surprised how a person you thought a selfaborbed nacissist acts in other areas of life... at least I have been in some cases of people I know.

Re: people not marrying. Doesn't that involved both a men and a woman? How can a woman marry if there are no men wanting to marry her?

A problem which should be discussed in this context is the "lack of men with college degrees". Let's be honest about it. People typically do marry within their educational group, if they don't the women typically marries up. Families are typically not very pleased if their daugther marries a man who has a lower station in life.
Nowadays women graduated from college at higher rates then men which to my mind is not solely the fault of men. I know examples of men who did very poorly in school and college, nearly did not graduate but excelled as soon as they started working, there seems to be something about college that keeps men from realizing their full potential.

Could be interesting to take the career as a military officer as an example. At least in Germany that used to be a privilege of the genrty which was abolished (don't ask me excaclty when, in the early 20th century). There was a long period when it was possible to become an officer without having graduated from a selective school. Nowadays while the theoretical possibility still exist nearly all of those starting an officer career have graduated from one.
I have been told that this is somewhat similar in Great Britain, is that true?
Why do I mention that? Because I think that alternative roots to a high social status are more and more closed down, it becomes more and more dependent on ones education.

The "lack of men" dooms a fair percentage of them to stay single if they do not want to break that old dating pattern.

Some gentry families I know solve that problem by shortchanging their daughters chances in life, denying them college though they have better grades then their sons.
Some Muslims definetly take this to an extreme...

Both are groups which have high birth rates, German gentry about 4,something children per women, Turkish Muslims in Germany about 1,8 children per women as far I know, while the TFR for my country is about 1,4.

The question to my mind should rather be: how is it possible to solve that problem without stiffeling the young womens ambition... like making it more acceptable if a woman marries down... or making upper schools and colleges a better fit for men.

Having no education/work experience is a risk for a women and the whole family. That is not only the case if the husband turns out to be a "rotten apple", but equally so if he dies, falls ill or anything like that.

I do not not have a solution and would love to hear your thoughts.
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Gavin » 06 Sep 2014, 09:37

Well, there's a lot to go into there, Yessica. Suffice it to say that I believe women naturally seek a more dominant man (those who don't are feminists). This is simply the way of nature. If they insist on getting highly paid jobs and not raising children then they narrow the pool of men to whom they can be (subtlely) subdominant and therefore with whom they can be comfortable. Also it is not natural for a man to be attracted to a woman who is behaving as a man and who earns more then him - men will usually avoid relationships with such women. (See more elaboration on this in a video to which I have linked before.)

It is feminists who told women to be like men and to try to do men's jobs. Men never asked for that, because men are not attracted to that. (Women never really asked for it either, I don't think.) In my opinion the wise woman follows the traditional path, which will be most in tune with her nature and ultimately most satisfying (there will obviously be a few exceptions to this).

Many men are foolish too, most certainly. Like TD, I particularly dislike men's obsession with football, which I regard as trivial and pointless and the majority of whose players (and fans, actually!) seem to be thugs. Football - the bread and circuses of today - seems to have hijacked a sense of patriotism which could be more intelligently directed.

Not to go too far off topic, yet another one of these dumb narcissistic female Twitter accounts has strangely followed the forum!
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Roger » 07 Sep 2014, 21:51

Narcissism is one of the obvious cultural threads running through this episode, the expression and origins of which having been thoroughly documented here and elsewhere.

Another obvious component is the "pornographisation" of society, which needs no explanation but perhaps requires some deeper investigation.

It is no surprise that this large-scale release of celebrity nudes is dubbed "The Fappening" ("fap" being an onomatopoeic reference to masturbation). In a world of jaded sexual appetites, masturbation (to hardcore pornography in particular) is a mechanical process akin to urination or drooling on the pillow while napping, "just something everybody does so you BETTER DEAL WITH IT".

In this world, sex is almost entirely divorced from love and reproduction, and when combined with narcissism becomes an act, a dress-up game, in which each person treats the other as an object, where titillation and horniness are the ultimate objectives, along with feeling pretty damn sexy about yourself.

Isn't it strange how rich, successful, youthful and attractive women are taking faux-erotic snapshots of themselves, if not for the benefit of their own satisfaction then for their current beau's delectation? It's like it's not enough to be having real sex with Jennifer Lawrence, a vocation for which millions of people would give their lives. No, you must have badly shot photos of some breasts and a cheap thong saved to your smartphone to complete the fantasy.

What struck me about the photos I saw (I won't plead innocence on this front, yet nor do I buy the argument that everything connected to the internet is fair game), was how utterly banal they seemed. How anti-erotic. How the subjects had become pathetic objects. This isn't masturbation material, this is junk food, bubblegum, empty calories. As The Last Psychiatrist said:

Junk food is stripped of the essentials of real food, leaving just the vulgar, the simple, the obvious of taste: sugar, salt, fat, repeat.  It is the pornographization of food.   The mistake people make is that they think it is delicious, but it's really just easy, comforting, reliable, satisfying.  And that's where we are now: online porn is the pornographization of porn. 
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Elliott » 08 Sep 2014, 05:56

Honestly, I think we should go easier on these female celebrities. From the photos (and, yes, I'll admit it, videos) that I have seen, they were shot for the "benefit" of their boyfriends. The ones I saw were basically these women talking to the phone, making a salacious or jokey video message for their respective lovers. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Couples have always done this sort of thing in other ways. We now live in an age in which it's extremely easy to make photos or videos of oneself and send them to a friend or lover. Why shouldn't these women do that? For some of them there will be a bit of narcissism in it, sure, but I think in the main it is basically a way of being affectionate and sending a "treat" to their lover.

In the videos I have seen, the woman is talking and joking and laughing, naturally and with warmth; it's not a terrible shallow "look at my body and give me praise for it constantly" sort of thing. It's just lovers being lovers. I see no problem with it. I know that if I had a girlfriend as beautiful as, say, Jessica Findlay, I would be damned pleased if, when we were apart, she sent me little "treats" of this nature.
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Gavin » 08 Sep 2014, 09:42

Just to pick up on Charlie's point from earlier, I think it is indeed partly the cult of narcissism (grotesquely) that is leading these individuals to make videos beheading people. This loser from London thinks he is the big man, standing there on a video for all eyes across the world to see. He stands above someone, dominant, about to take their life. I imagine some women are even attracted to him (serial killers are never short of female attention). He'll be seen as "alpha" in some way, and he no doubt basks in the attention he is receiving. That's why I agree that little should be given to him, little that is not scathing and belittling, in any case. This is fake: he's not alpha really, he's just a loser sadistically killing a defenceless journalist.

So yes, I can see that these videos have an element of the "selfie". Jihad has the element of looking for a cause in life, too, the trouble is that Islam offers so brutal a cause. If one tries to imitate Mohammed one is going to end up as a crazy, intolerant, power seeking killer, just like the members of Isis.
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Re: Narcissism

Postby Gavin » 30 Dec 2014, 09:23

This is the kind of message one often sees broadcast by young feminists these days - either overtly or not.


I was just minding my own business and this is at once rude, narcissistic and presumptive. The bag is, as you can see, unattended also - possibly causing a bomb alert.
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