Was TD understating the Islamic threat?

Dalrymple analyses European cultural decline, concluding that ultimately Europeans have no-one else to blame but themselves.

Was TD understating the Islamic threat?

Postby Elliott » 01 Aug 2011, 00:32

I've said several times on the blog that I thought TD was, for whatever reason, downplaying the threat of demographic change posed by Europe's Muslim populations.

It's possible to find, very quickly, umpteen webpages which will tell you that Muslims are going to take over Europe, or conversely, that they're not. There's a BBC video on Youtube that disputes the claims made by this famous video, and seems quite persuasive. But people will say the BBC is biased.

Anecdotally, my own experience of life in London, Manchester, Edinburgh, Italy, France, Belgium and Holland suggests that, whatever the scale of it, there is a large number of Muslims in Europe today and it's getting bigger by the year.

What do you think?
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Re: Was TD understating the Islamic threat?

Postby Laurence » 16 Aug 2011, 10:47

This is one area in which I think TD is wrong. He basically seems to think that the 'Islamic' issue will go away as Muslims integrate into British society. He says this in one of the books - I'm afraid I forget which. But then in another (I think 'Second Opinion) he mentions Muslim women coming to him as patients and showing the bruises from domestic beatings so conveniently covered by their all-enveloping 'Islamic' dress, and he talks of the way some Muslim treat their women as chattels, and the abuse of very young women or girls in prostitution rackets in some areas.
The fact is that not only is the Muslim population the fastest growing in the UK today, but much more alarmingly, there is a specific, militant conservative form of Islam which is rapidly taking over communities and enforcing its own version of religion on people who were formerly quite moderate and prepared to integrate. This is visible everywhere - certainly in Oxford, where I am based, ten years ago you never saw 'Islamic' dress, whereas now it is quite common to see women in full black shrouds with face masks and men with huge beards in 'kaftans' in the street.
The version of Islam I refer to is called Wah'habism, and is based on the ideas of an 18th century hardline Islamic teacher. It is the version practised in Saudi Arabia, and over recent decades literally billions of dollars have been invested by the Saudis in exporting this version of their religion around the world. This is the real danger - not the politicised ideology of 'Islamism', but a militant conservative Islam which is completely hostile to western ideas of liberal democracy and determined to prevent Muslims integrating. I think TD is probably unaware of this, or regards it as unimportant. Apart from the moral perversion of a large swathe of young people in Britain today by a depraved youth 'culture', I believe it to be the biggest threat to retaining something of western European and specifically British values today.

There is some useful information about this here:
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Re: Was TD understating the Islamic threat?

Postby Michael » 17 Aug 2011, 00:46

Good point Laurence. Because I do not live in Britain I do not feel competent to judge upon the nature of the Islamic threat, though I have become concerned thanks to the writings of Dalrymple and the other writers at New English Review.

Yaroslav Trofimov has an excellent book, "The Siege of Mecca" which describes just why the Saudis put billions of dollars into proselytizing Wahhabism. In 1979 Islamic fundamentalists, believing that one of their number was the Mahdi, the redeemer of Islam, took over the Grand Mosque of Mecca on the last night of Ramadan, trapping thousands of worshippers inside. The military operation mounted by the Saudis to free the hostages and liberate the mosque was a shambles - reliable numbers are hard to come by, but soldiers who were there place the casualty number in the thousands.

To execute the final stage of the siege, with overwhelming force, the Saudi government needed the approval of the ulema, the supreme religious council of the kingdom. The ulema are made up entirely of hard line Wahhabists, staying true to the original faith of the Wahhabi warriors who helped Ibn Saud win his kingdom in the 1920's. For the granting of a fatwa to take the mosque by any means necessary the ulema demanded that the Saudis pour billions of dollars of their oil wealth into proselytization.

I highly recommend the book - it reads like a very good thriller. I remarked to my wife that it would make a superb action/political thriller like Black Hawk Down or Clear and Present Danger, but realized in these days of political correctness (and violently intolerant Islamism) there is no way one could make a documentary about this event that supremely embarrassed the Saudi monarchy. Incidentally, Trofimov connects the siege to inspiring Osama bin Laden. He became convinced that the seizure showed that the Saud family had failed in their claim to legitimacy as protectors of the holy cities of Islam.
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Re: Was TD understating the Islamic threat?

Postby Andreas » 06 May 2014, 19:53

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Re: Was TD understating the Islamic threat?

Postby Gavin » 06 May 2014, 21:14

Thanks for that. I was just re-reading Laurence's reply above by the way, and I am inclined to agree with it.
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